[DEBATE] A.I.

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jonaz.dk
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[DEBATE] A.I.

Unread post by jonaz.dk » 21 Dec 2022, 10:02

Let's try a debate for once! It's so rare here.

I will not provide any possibly biasing statements now and here. But just hear out your opinions on the matter. :)

Summarized quickly.. machine learning AI has been around for quite a while now and the recent development has shown the world that it is a growing force to be reckoned with in sheer volume and quality from OpenAI's ChatGPT to image generation in Midjourney and many other uses. Even to the degree that a lot of artists on ArtStation has started campaigning against the training of AI using their work.

Artists campaigning against AI.
Image


So what do you guys thing about the recent development and the future prospect of AI in games and possibly beyond?

Niels Jørgensen
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Re: [DEBATE] A.I.

Unread post by Niels Jørgensen » 21 Dec 2022, 11:10

I completely understand the resistance.

This is going to be a bit dooms-day-ish, but I'm concerned TBH...

I'm concerned that it will eventually be "good enough", and because it's free, it will be the preferred method of doing anything we consider "creative" today - doesn't matter if it's concept art, music or code or anything in between.

But, here's the catch, it's not creative. It's 100% derivative - it adds nothing of its own, simply because it does not know, nor care, what it is doing, it just mashes things together based on statistics.

Because it is infinitely faster than humans, it will very very quickly outperform us to the point where the vast majority of content (Again, doesn't matter what the content is) is "produced" by AI.

Eventually this will lead to inbred results where it feeds its own output back into the machine and everything will become the same. Fighting it will become increasingly difficult because any attempt to challenge it will by definition be fringe and probably drown in the noise. People will not care because most of us are lazy and just follow the largest crowd.

Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag, and there is no possible way we can stop it. Laws and regulations only apply to those who obey them, and there'll always be some that don't.

I honestly think that the AI apocalypse is not going to be machine-gun toting terminators. It's going to be machines boring us to death by doing everything we love to do "well enough" that there is no longer any motivation for us to do anything.

In any case, I'll probably be dead when it happens, and I'm not particularly sad about that. I'm sad my kids may get to experience it.

Niels Jørgensen
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Re: [DEBATE] A.I.

Unread post by Niels Jørgensen » 25 Dec 2022, 20:18

Just had this pop up in my YouTube feed a few minutes ago (Speaking of AI: Damn you Siri, I told you to turn yourself off):



Less gloomy than my perspective perhaps, but many of the same points... :)

(And just for the record, I do think Siri and her merry band of competing idiots are more artificial than intelligent, so there's that)

Merry X-mas all :)

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Re: [DEBATE] A.I.

Unread post by jonaz.dk » 28 Dec 2022, 00:39

First.. predicting is hard... Especially about the future.

Also Any more takes? I know it's hard to debate stuff here.. for lurker reasons. ;)


Well let's make some counter arguments to that logic Niels then. :)
Also some of the following points that might piss people off?! So that good! Let's get some points of discussion going. :)


For one, don't forget that all human artists (and humans in general) are just as derived in their thinking from other people as AI is.
It is the very nature of living things to imitate and learn from what was before it. A completely natural evolutionary cycle.
Artists uses reference and constantly steal ("gets inspired" (without consent)) from each other all the time.
"Good artists borrow, great artists steal... AI just happens to be incredibly good at it." (Technically speaking AI is not stealing.. it's just really good at imitating. creating images from scratch)
And for now it is human asking the AI for a specific result. Humans are in the driving seat for now at least.

Fundamentally I think artists got real scared when AI got real good. Totally understandable! It's a very human reaction to see your livelihood threatened in such an automated way. But that is the force of democratization on machine learning steroids.
And no only their livelihood.. it is their entire lifestyle, personal identity and a skills set they have been honing for lifetime.
Didn't see any artists campaigning when AI art was looking kinda shitty. ;) Now that latest AI art looks amazing! (With still some weirdness here and there) and it will only become better with new AI iterations in the future.

Just a photography got introduced and painters felt threatened on their livelihood from people simply pressing a button. Painting didn't go away. But they did have to change... and who likes to change?!.. takes so much effort!... change is just annoying! Especially when you have invested your entire life into learning a craft and a computer can do in a few seconds... only (maybe) better.

I actually don't see AI art as something that will stifle the output of human creativity. Far from! It will amplify it exponentially. It's an incredible powerful tool that will completely disrupt so many fields. Allowing vastly more people to work om vastly more projects of any kind. Everything will be democratized to a crazy new degree.
Perhaps the global output of amazing experiences will just increase to a point where it will be even harder than it is today to find the time to consume them.. I already skip a lot of cool interesting stuff I could potentially enjoy.. just because time.

And yes I perfectly agree.. AI is not going away!
It will only increase in potency till the point where pretty much everything that a computer can computerate AI can do better than most things.

One thing is certain! Change is here and will only increase in speed on a exponential scale. (You could probably call it the early days of the Ray Kurzweil framed 'Singularity')

I can see a few different stances on AI with a bit of game logic applied.

Make your choice (of cause reality is more complex)
1. Work against AI => You spend a lot of energy getting nowhere and in the end be left in the dust and frustrated.
2. Ignore AI => You will be left ind the dust.
3. Work with AI => Use AI as another tool in your toolbox to do better work faster.
4. Branch off => Reject all AI related things and try to carve a niche of value in your own 'made by humans' branch. Won't be easy but can be done.
5. Build it => If you more than embrace AI as a tool and start building the services and or core tech. I think we will see some >VERY< successful companies based on AI services and technologies. This is really the future. Maybe I am over-hyping the implications.. or maybe not. But I can't imagine some companies out there wouldn't be able to absolutely crush the competition who are sleeping on their laurels in a lot of areas.

(Added 5. Build it)

Some of the overall effects of AI summarized +/-
- Art.. and many other things gets completely democratized.
- Greatly increased global creative output.
- Increased creative output leads to greater opportunities for more people for those who understand to use it.
- Increased creative output leads to increased competition.
- Increased competition leads to some people will have to change their ways. And also more losers in the big race in the global attention economy and also a lot of new winners. Who never had the opportunity.
- The big winners will be the companies the provides the tools, services and technology to facilitate the "AI revolution" (Nothing new really.. the world is already like this)
- Some people will feel left behind. Some might even turn really hostile against AI and or people using it.
- AI will not replace human creativity but certainly change a lot of the current dynamics.
- AI will replace some jobs while creating/transforming others.
- I think a brand of 'Made by humans' could be an exclusive thing people are willing to pay for. So an opportunity there that does not include AI.

So all in all.. (Em)brace for change!

I would probably recommend working with AI as I really can't see any better logical ways to do it, living in a modern western society. Unless you are actively looking for hardship or you can carve out your own 'Made by humans' niche. That's cool too.

Completely alternatively you could go completely back to nature and move into some sort of simple-living society and ignore all modernity. Learn to farm and all that. That's cool too. Nothing wrong with that!

Any thoughts or counterpoints to my odd, possibly incoherent thinking?

Feel free! :)

**Adding! By no means don't stop making great art, music, voice acting, writing or whatever field, AI can or will do in the future. That should not discourage you from doing something you enjoy.

And by all means don't use AI as an excuse to not be good are your basic craft. Git gud! AND use AI to enhance your already excellent skills and efficiency.

And who knows.. someday I may change my stance. But then it will probably be too late. And there was nothing anybody could do about it anyways. Stopping all technological progress for all of humanity is realistically not in the cards by any means, for any human controlled force on Earth... So yeah..
Luckily humans are very much excellent at adapting to the given circumstances... since the dawn of man. So what I can see is that more adaptation will be required in the world of tomorrow and beyond.

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